Curse

Takida · Nov 01, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

The fact that you call 3 monk backline with a warder a holding build is pretty funny.

TheZens · Nov 01, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

Of course this is impossible now, and the sad state of halls is beyond repair in my opinion. The problem lays not in new map rotation, which is very good, but the players themselves. And I too miss the old tombs, crowded, populated with many good teams and HA guilds. But its the past that cannot be brought back.

It is Game over for sure especially when those running the game dont listen, all the threads are there with the changes that are needed all the feedback they need is available to them but they dont use it. The lack of proper skill balance in a timely fashion and then botching them 90% of the time is also a big cuplrit.

I could write more, give opinions, and debate ideas all day long if i had to but whats the point? its a waste of my time when Anet simply do not listen to the playerbase when it comes to PvP issues or the changes are sooo slow coming that everyone gave up.

We can only hope they learn lessons for GW2 but its too WoW-like for my liking at the moment.

randomnoobi · Nov 01, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

The fact that you think holding was only a problem in six man is pretty funny.

TaCktiX · Nov 01, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I'd say Capture Points is a step in the wrong direction. With that type, gimmicky running builds with less concerted damage in the build are able to win, and potentially hold halls. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of seeing bunnythumpers in HoH.

Relic Runs could be better if there was something other than "zomg, snare/kill the runner, get the body blockers off ours" to do. Maybe double points for capping relics, a single point for killing an opposing person on the team (Kill Count/Relic Run hybrid).

And what's wrong with putting Kill Count period in HoH? It would encourage more offensive builds in HoH, instead of the endless DA chain + Guardian + Shield of Deflection + 75% block stance stuff you see in balanced builds that hold these days.

Lorekeeper · Nov 01, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

The fact that you call 3 monk backline with a warder a holding build is pretty funny.

wait a second... if altar holding came back and people running balanced started running 3 monk backlines with warders (spellbreaker+dual soa or dual seeds+ward melee+stability+song conc+interrupts) you dont think they are running that kind of a build for a reason?? /fail

no GOOD balanced team would need to run so much defense unless ALL they wanted to do was to somehow get to HoH with lucky draws against BAD teams on the way there or with a skip and to HOLD with a static defensive build that has 3 monks (probably with spellbreaker and 2 soas or 2 seeds).

a build with 3 monks and a defensive warder just doesnt fit into the demands of the rest of the HA maps, especially considering the number of capture point maps and the relic maps (assuming sacred temples comes back).

i dont consider it a pure holding build, im sure you could come up with a better one, but a 3 monk backline with a warder is a POOR way to argue that old style altar capping would promote balanced builds. Because a 3 monk build with a warder is just a poor excuse for a good balanced build... its a balanced build with the aim of holding an altar... a holding build disguised as a balanced build.

- this entire thread stinks of fail already, Nurse i know you had all the best intentions but i think its pretty obvious what kind of a thread this will become... tireless debate about holding vs balanced ignoring the real issues about the current HoH maps... which some people are just incapable of discussing.

bitchbar player · Nov 01, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I voted for same as it now, basically for the 3 objectives but i would like the objectives to be changed.

olschool alter capping should be one of them, relic run is oke i guess and third.... try something new as long as capture point is removed. Maybe keep it at 2 different types

Nurse With Wound · Nov 01, 2007, 03:08 PM // 15:08

I think Lorekeeper posted a clean explanation why build with 3 monk backline and full warder ( 4 dedicated defensive chars, with altar only elite - SB ) is a holding one. If you don't want to sink this thread further, do not debate what is and what isn't holding, read the thread's title. EOT about holding builds.

Stick to the "Changes to HOH?" ok? With preferably well thought posts.

LifesRestorer · Nov 01, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomnoobi

The fact that you think holding was only a problem in six man is pretty funny.

holding, in both formats was something that was completely overrated and only existed because people didnt bother to bring viable counters, such as sticking diversion on interrupters, blinding ranger interrupters, sticking hexes such as reckless haste/blurred vision on interrupters, interrupting things such as seeking arrows, followed by putting guardian/SoD on ghosts or even plain e-denying the enemy.

If you couldnt even crush the enemy 16v8 to get the ghost down then thats just you being baed.

old school altar holding pliz

Lord Natural · Nov 01, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Oldschool holding ftw. It was a more intense match and ultimately, more fun. As for holding builds, I didn't mind at all if a team had a long holding run, as it just made it more of a challenge to take them off the altar.

Relic runs in hoh are just a joke. 3 teams half-assing it because they don't want to stick out as the leader and get ganked. Start trying in the last 60 seconds. What fun.

Nothing beats that final 2-3 min of the old altar when shit went bananas. It really felt like what the final round of a tournament should. It's so anti-climatic now, when many matches are decided before the final 2 minutes.

crucifix · Nov 01, 2007, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Oldschool holding ftw. It was a more intense match and ultimately, more fun. As for holding builds, I didn't mind at all if a team had a long holding run, as it just made it more of a challenge to take them off the altar.

Relic runs in hoh are just a joke. 3 teams half-assing it because they don't want to stick out as the leader and get ganked. Start trying in the last 60 seconds. What fun.

Nothing beats that final 2-3 min of the old altar when shit went bananas. It really felt like what the final round of a tournament should. It's so anti-climatic now, when many matches are decided before the final 2 minutes.

sorry for double quoting, but that first comment is completely correct, in fact, im going to embellish that point. Teams that held for hours on end were not only playing a superior build, but were legitimately better skilled players because of it. Old days of 8v8= skill to hold, combined with a bit of luck. new age 8v8= clusterfook.

masta_yoda · Nov 01, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

The poll is a purely posters request, it is their forum and they are entitled to it. That being said, I agree with Lorekeeper that the results of this poll shouldn't be taken very seriously as most of the people voting in polls are too lazy to actually discuss the issue and are just hitting the voting button. I view it merely as panem et circenses, with emphasis on the second part.

My personal opinion is that current HoH rotation is working well, although it could use some minor fixes. We were discussing those in previous threads, which have sadly fallen out of the first page.
To point them out in short manner though -

1) capture points lack the required shrines number to make this a balanced map. With one shrines for each team and the central altar it is either KotH, or just gank, nothing in between. Two neutral shrines would have improve the map.
2) Relic run in HoH is not a good format. Basically it should promote faster running, but on the other hand, if your team is leading you have to face gank by both opposing teams, which usually ends in defeat. It's hard to balance this map due to the simple and straightforward path from relic to altar, so there is no simple solution to this problem ( not without changes to map, adding additional conditions etc ). As it is now, it very luck - dependent, and sadly awards last cap.

Old altar capping will not bring old balanced team domination over HoH. Sadly, there are just few good old teams who can run quality balanced nowadays. Heroes Ascent population has changed, and it is mostly populated by new players, who do not care about quality of game, but fame and fame only, so the only solution for improving the situation is manually handling the meta through fast and frequent skill balances that would decimate FotMs and gimmicks. Basically if people don't care about quality builds, you have to force them to run them with proper skill balance.

Of course this is impossible now, and the sad state of halls is beyond repair in my opinion. The problem lays not in new map rotation, which is very good, but the players themselves. And I too miss the old tombs, crowded, populated with many good teams and HA guilds. But its the past that cannot be brought back.

1. sorry but that idea will fail, halls doesnt have space to put two neutral shrines which give equal advantage to three teams..... if your going to add neutral shrines it would be probably on the east and west sides meaning teams will have 2 shrines each.

2. relic sucks and should be removed.... if you want relic then put sacred temples back.

3. skill balance will help get rid of shit way, too bad, it is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing broke, making that the only build we ever see. Necros probably need a nerf.... the reason why that build is so strong is because the heal is quite incredible with secondary healers on top of spamming ooa to rape enchants

Lorekeeper · Nov 01, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by masta_yoda

1. sorry but that idea will fail, halls doesnt have space to put two neutral shrines which give equal advantage to three teams..... if your going to add neutral shrines it would be probably on the east and west sides meaning teams will have 2 shrines each.

2. relic sucks and should be removed.... if you want relic then put sacred temples back.

3. skill balance will help get rid of shit way, too bad, it is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing broke, making that the only build we ever see. Necros probably need a nerf.... the reason why that build is so strong is because the heal is quite incredible with secondary healers on top of spamming ooa to rape enchants

1) the first idea will only fail if it is poorly implemented... the other 2 maps in the HA rotation were properly designed to suit multipl capture point style mechanics... HoH clearly is not - if Anet considers making any changes it should be to add 2 more branches to the HoH map with a shrine on each end, adding 2 shrines to the existing HoH will fail... but that isnt what the idea is asking for, the idea is asking for proper solution not half baked ones because noone has time to do any work on it... id rather a broken HoH than to see continual half baked attempts at fixing it.

on an interesting note... why cant we play capture points in ''The Vault''? That map is ideally suited towards this mechanic, its huge! That map has always been commented on by people ive played with as being a really interesting map... and its pretty confusing why any time was spent designing such a big map without it being used for anything but a simple waiting room. Puzzling.

2) I think it would be interesting to see Anet could, if they wanted, to make relic run three way work, its difficult and ganking is a huge issue but there must be ways of making it work... just people on these forums are so narrow sighted and incapable of exploring a wider range of ideas that they dont bother to think of anything past the altar holding vs koth debate. Its obvious what the problems are with relic runs in HoH but none of you actually try to think of ways to fix the problems... stop being so bullheaded and dismissive and try to give some constructive feedback for once in your lives.

3) spiritway is not popular because it is broken, it is far from being broken like the old rit spike was, the strength of spiritway, like iway that came before it is the very powerful combination of either spirits+thumper kd+daze/warrior dchop pressure or heavy degen+thumper+kd+daze pressure supported with ooa. The only thing that needs to be changed about these builds is the ease at which they can be played... RaO thumpers are ridiculously easy to play for example... so many peolpe like running builds like these because the sum total of all their parts achieves something quite powerful requiring very little individual skill on their behalfs, with pressure and shutdown effects a highly skilled balanced team would be proud of minus the skill and complexity of application. Its not overpowered, its just ridiculously easy high pressure build, and any casual fame farmer obviously jumps at the chance of running such an effective build. Please stop calling for the nerf of spiritway because its overpowered.

Takida · Nov 02, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

1). Its obvious what the problems are with relic runs in HoH but none of you actually try to think of ways to fix the problems... stop being so bullheaded and dismissive and try to give some constructive feedback for once in your lives.

3) spiritway is not popular because it is broken, it is far from being broken like the old rit spike was, the strength of spiritway, like iway that came before it is the very powerful combination of either spirits+thumper kd+daze/warrior dchop pressure or heavy degen+thumper+kd+daze pressure supported with ooa. The only thing that needs to be changed about these builds is the ease at which they can be played... RaO thumpers are ridiculously easy to play for example... so many peolpe like running builds like these because the sum total of all their parts achieves something quite powerful requiring very little individual skill on their behalfs, with pressure and shutdown effects a highly skilled balanced team would be proud of minus the skill and complexity of application. Its not overpowered, its just ridiculously easy high pressure build, and any casual fame farmer obviously jumps at the chance of running such an effective build. Please stop calling for the nerf of spiritway because its overpowered.

Dragons maybe its because people want old HA Back?
If we want to run around we go gvg?
ah to hell with it............

auch · Nov 02, 2007, 11:39 AM // 11:39

i still think they should bring back old maps and , forgotten shrines? never heard any 1 that actually likes that map,

Cass · Nov 02, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

3) spiritway is not popular because it is broken, it is far from being broken like the old rit spike was, the strength of spiritway, like iway that came before it is the very powerful combination of either spirits+thumper kd+daze/warrior dchop pressure or heavy degen+thumper+kd+daze pressure supported with ooa. The only thing that needs to be changed about these builds is the ease at which they can be played... RaO thumpers are ridiculously easy to play for example... so many peolpe like running builds like these because the sum total of all their parts achieves something quite powerful requiring very little individual skill on their behalfs, with pressure and shutdown effects a highly skilled balanced team would be proud of minus the skill and complexity of application. Its not overpowered, its just ridiculously easy high pressure build, and any casual fame farmer obviously jumps at the chance of running such an effective build. Please stop calling for the nerf of spiritway because its overpowered.

I think "overpowered" has two meanings:

1) Something that is too powerful for the effort required to play it. The absolute power level of a spiritway is fine, but the ease of getting to that level is not.

2) Something that is too powerful in comparison with other builds, even if it requires some effort to run. Spike builds are a good example of this.

Nerfing applies to both meanings, but in the first case it would be enough to make the build more difficult to play (a mechanism like RaO is dumb), while in the second case you'd have to focus on damage output (both in amplitude and frequency).

I haven't voted because I doubt there is a real benefit of going back to holding. I don't think the current rotation in Halls and on other maps is so great though. There is too much opportunity to gank and in all of my recent holding experiences, it ended with being flat-out ganked. And that's not even because ganking is rewarded: Ganking invariably results in retaliation and going down together with the team you were trying to get. The winner is always the lucky 3rd, who wins halls with virtually no effort.
Maybe the chest rewards should be adjusted (flames, 200gp garments and likewise smiting wands are just wow), so that people have more incentive to actually play to win.

Nadia Roark · Nov 02, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takida

Have you seen halls lately? .... It does NOT Promote balanceds..
From what i've seen there's a new "sway" build wich includes: 2 thumps 2 fire 1 water, And u know what? The build holds forever..

You have me to blame (in part) for that one--I ran 2x Thump and 2x SH ele last year, but it was too easy to shut down in 6v6 so I abandoned the build after a dozen runs or so. In mid-August or so I came back to HA briefly and my new guild ran this build with great success, even though at the time I hadn't the foggiest memory of ever running it before. We named it "Boomway," I think. Our GL said "come to HA with whatver you have roled right now--we ended up with 2 fire, 2 thump a water, me on RC (protting under EW is kinda fun

) alongisde and expel rit and a n/rt SR abuser for backline. Pretty much every time we ran it we held until our strat caller got parentspiked.

I've long been of the opinion that (and this build proved it to me) the "traditional" spiritwat was wildly overrated--trappers never win against a team that knows what its doing. I haven't been to HA recently but I would imagine that they're running this build without the Monk, since there are so many players nowadays that don't know how to backline unless they get infinite energy.... which leads me to my main point (Lord, I hope someone at ANet is reading this and still takes me seriously): HA isn't borked because one or two builds are dominating--it's always been that way. HA is borked because for the first time, we have a meta that doesn't teach its users how to play the game. RaO thumping is so mindless that its player can go afk and his team may not even notice. Backlining with necros is hardly any better: it still requires reaction, sure, but the whole idea of backline balance goes out the window when you have an infinite energy battery (don't forget, it's also party-wide prot!) that's so easily executed.

I get the impression that Soul Reaping kinda ran away from ANet; I'm not sure whether they thought anything like this would ever come to pass. That may be part of the reason they're not doing anything about it--it's entirely possible that the dev team regards spirit SR abuse as a clever use of the mechanism. They've obviously been encouraging backline alternatives to monks (which sucks, because we have absolutely zero other uses in PvP whereas Necros already have dozens), and I think the lingering SR abuse is a manifestation of ANet's desire to add to backline options--even though they're actually narrowing backline options by making one class unquestionably superior to the others, at least in HA.

In my view, the problem here isn't maps or victory conditions or party size or anything like that--the problem, really, has more to do with the almost complete marginalization of Ritualists and Monks. If you design a character class for a specific role (eg. monks for healing/prot), more care needs to be taken if you plan on adjusting their "supremacy" in the backline. If Monks are only useful in the backline and nowhere else, they do not deserve to be pushed out of this role by a character class with literally dozens of other productive uses in all PvP arenas.

Soul Reaping from spirits should have been removed the instant Factions came out, but instead we have this lame 5 second timer, and a "nerf" to the SR return from spirits. The very fact that this was even done in the first place is a naked admission that there was something wrong with SR and spirits; and the SR rework was clearly aimed at "fixing" PvP Necro functionality, particularly with builds like Jagged. News Flash: it didn't work, and you nerfed Jagged anyway. That build would have died with the Jagged nerf alone, but we kept this half-assed fix and SR abuse continues unabated. Necro abuse is still as common and as powerful as it was during the Jagged days--if that deserved a fix, this clearly does too.

Lord Mendes · Nov 03, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Not only is Nadia Roark the best prot monk in the game, but he is also the best build maker.
<3

Swift The Cunning · Nov 03, 2007, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

You have me to blame (in part) for that one--I ran 2x Thump and 2x SH ele last year, but it was too easy to shut down in 6v6 so I abandoned the build after a dozen runs or so. In mid-August or so I came back to HA briefly and my new guild ran this build with great success, even though at the time I hadn't the foggiest memory of ever running it before. We named it "Boomway," I think. Our GL said "come to HA with whatver you have roled right now--we ended up with 2 fire, 2 thump a water, me on RC (protting under EW is kinda fun

) alongisde and expel rit and a n/rt SR abuser for backline. Pretty much every time we ran it we held until our strat caller got parentspiked.

I've long been of the opinion that (and this build proved it to me) the "traditional" spiritwat was wildly overrated--trappers never win against a team that knows what its doing. I haven't been to HA recently but I would imagine that they're running this build without the Monk, since there are so many players nowadays that don't know how to backline unless they get infinite energy....

If you did hold alot with it how come i have never seen it being run with monk backline and holding in halls? It maybe has but it could not be alot since i do observe HoH matches alot and i dont see it hold. I have seen it with Monk backline but it didn't do to well. Surely if you did hold alot with it your guild would be well known for playing it. I don't think i ever have seen your guild name hold before

The first guild guild ive seen hold with it (but with N/Rt backline) is Mc Droknars and since then alot of guild wars HAers call it the McDroknarsway or chubbyway (their name for it). Maybe you did make a version of it with monks before but i doubt it ran well because i never saw it being played alot (if at all) before Mc Droknars. Eitherway you cannot take the credit for it being the current meta. Mc Droknars are the ones who publicised it with the N/rts and that is the meta version. They did not copy it from any other teams either. Mc Droknars created the build to counter SWAY by using the same Melee damage but with the counter to SWAY which is snares and alot of AoE. It is also very powerfull against alot of other builds and can hold forever

Nadia Roark · Nov 03, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swift The Cunning

If you did hold alot with it how come i have never seen it being run with monk backline and holding in halls?

Uhh.. probably because you didn't obs us and no one else runs it with the monk? This was back in early August, before the build was meta, and we were usually holding around and slightly after midnight, since our GL was west coast. The only reason we didn't run with a second n/rt is because it started kind of as a randomway (half our team had been playing balanced, and the other half had been playing spiritwat immediately prior to the run, so elements of both got fused together), and we didn't take it seriously at all at first. I thought we'd crater on UW, but we held on our first or second run for 3 or 4 rounds.

Quote:

It maybe has but it could not be alot since i do observe HoH matches alot and i dont see it hold. I have seen it with Monk backline but it didn't do to well. Surely if you did hold alot with it your guild would be well known for playing it. I don't think i ever have seen your guild name hold before

I'm not in that guild anymore. I went back to ToRe after I raged at our GL for insisting on calling while playing backline. We lost too many matches because he forgot he was a healer or wanted to call targets but refused to play frontline. When I was holding with this, it was with "We're Kind of a Big Deal [BIG]."

For what it's worth though, I haven't seen it run very well with a monk either--a few teams have tried but nine times out of ten it's nowhere near as effective as having another n/rt (because, let's face it, infinite energy > me). I don't know why it worked for us, but it did. Still, the fact that anyone would run it with a monk is an obvious homage to the original, semi-randomway build as "conceived" by [BIG].

Quote:

The first guild guild ive seen hold with it (but with N/Rt backline) is Mc Droknars and since then alot of guild wars HAers call it the McDroknarsway or chubbyway (their name for it). Maybe you did make a version of it with monks before but i doubt it ran well because i never saw it being played alot (if at all) before Mc Droknars. Eitherway you cannot take the credit for it being the current meta. Mc Droknars are the ones who publicised it with the N/rts and that is the meta version. They did not copy it from any other teams either. Mc Droknars created the build to counter SWAY by using the same Melee damage but with the counter to SWAY which is snares and alot of AoE. It is also very powerfull against alot of other builds and can hold forever

If McD's is the guild I think it is (with the little asian characters that look like houses), members of that guild played this build with us and began running it shortly before we disbanded. They may have taken out the monk, but its very likely that the essence of the build was originally ours... although as I said before it's not a particularly hard build to come up with and I wouldn't be surprised if someone else had the same idea. If someone had been running this prior to the first week in August, I wouldn't know, since I wasn't HAing at the time.

All that said, I didn't mean to get sidetracked into a conversation about who is responsible for the current meta. I was using the build as an example to show why the spiritwat backline (but not so much the rest of the team) is broken, and the fact that the second n/rt apparently works so much better than the monk seems to prove my point. I don't really think we need to be lobbying for any over-arching changes to HA; ANet has already jumped through enough hoops for us, and we change what we want map-wise literally every month. I think the rotation is okay, even though I don't like (but know why they added) maps like Antechamber and Forgotten Shrines. Rotating victory condisions in HoH , although I hated them at first, is a good idea overall. I understand and even sympathize with some of the the basic gripes about relic runs and capture points, but I still like the idea that we're being kept on our proverbial toes; and usually if a build is good at one format it's not so hot at another. The real issue to me is (backline) balance rather than any glaring oversight or gameplay problem with the current maps/order.

Lorekeeper · Nov 03, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

but I still like the idea that we're being kept on our proverbial toes; and usually if a build is good at one format it's not so hot at another. The real issue to me is (backline) balance rather than any glaring oversight or gameplay problem with the current maps/order.

finally someone posts some sense in this thread apart from Nurse.

Id go even further to say that the problems in tombs/ha were always more about the builds than the maps... people built builds to expoit the maps and found the tools/skills that allowed for these exploitation builds to be built.

think about it... hasnt every single dominant/popular gimmick build been based on at least one imbalanced skill or mechanic? With every single one of them bar 1 or 2 being nerfed as a result of those imbalances?

to name but a few of the most obvious ones

spirit spam - based on exploitation of spirit spamming and stacking rangers which was changed resulting in its death

iway - based on the exploitation of dual orders + insane IAS from ''I Will Avenge You!'' stacked with tigers fury + insane dmg from prenerf evis + huge power of pre-nerf Natures renewal + huge energy boosts from pet deaths with soul reaping necro backlines

paragon holding build - based on stacking incoming+angelic bond+motivation shouts+infinite energy from energising finale.

jagged bones - based on the prenerf jagged bones skill and soul reaping.

rit spike - based on the incredibly overpowered channeling spike skills in combination with Shadow prison + expunge enchantment

heroway/spiritway (least imbalanced of all gimmicks but has become a gimmick because of the total lack of good teams left able to beat it) - is based on the very powerful combination of new RaO thumpers (with never before seen combination of increased attack and movement speed in 1 skill) with either hex+condition degen or snares+fire nuke pressure or NR tranq+eoe with smoke trapper spam with of course... soul reaping abuse necro backlines.

(see a recurring theme at all?)

when people claim that HA has always and will always be full of gimmicks they forget to add the condition that its because the game will always have at least a few broken or overpowered mechanics/skills in it to be abused.

its a little different now following the rit spike nerf... there is little left that is truly broken... or so clearly so. The problem that faces HA now is that after such a long history of lameness, with each of its many eras being characterised by gimmicks exploiting a particular imbalance, the only players left are the ones who have been playing these builds. The amount of players who have stuck to playing non-exploitative builds is so insignificant, there are barely ANY left. Trust me on that.

so even though in my opinion game balance in HA has finally rested at a reasonable level, there arent any proper teams left to uphold this balanced environment, you only have people who prefer to run button mashing builds and people who just arent good enough to beat those button mashing builds bcause they themselves have only ever learnt how to play the game with those builds. For the good teams who still out there, HA is a field day, especially when they run stuff thats designed to destroy the dominant gimmicks out there.

for the good teams HoH only needs to be changed so that it isnt such a /roll dice affair on the relic runs or capture point maps.